To all the folks considering an MLM:

Before joining an MLM, attend the motivational meetings and enjoy the experience. Make contacts and network. At the same time, attend inexpensive meetings at your local Small Business Administration and learn every thing you can about running a Business. Do those things first. Wait 3 months to take as many SBA classes as possible.

I would rather people try to operate a new business or franchise that they love and fail than to join an MLM and waste all that time
and money and fail.
Frankly, our chances for success are actually higher if we attend both meetings, the SBA for objective information and the MLM meetings for contacts, motivation, and encouragement.

In the end, it will be the MLM person who will need your encouragement and maybe you’ll be well enough along in your own business or high enough in someone else’s business to give the MLM person a job which they will need because they will likely be forced into workforce at some point when the MLM has sucked their savings dry. There is a true saying, it takes money to make money and keep making money.

For every successful business, someone somewhere coughed up some cash some where along the way that took them over a slump in their business– they just don’t tell you.

Quixtar is a little bit trickier, because my son has been led to believe that all he has to do is get other people to join and he will make money.

If he can get enough people to shell out about $200 US Dollars, he will be high enough in the chain to sit back and get point/cash so that he does not have to do hardly anything but live the rich life.

One ad in the Dateline video said that the man and his wife no longer had to get up anymore with an alarm clock. He does not say that his kids are grown and gone from home so he does not have to get his kids off to school. No kids = more spendable income. He also does not say in the ad that he can sleep late because he does meetings in the evening. He does not say that he invested his money into stocks and mutual funds. You get my point.

Thank you for allowing this long post and best regards to all.

I send my greetings to all who are marketing survivors

I have a family member who is seriously considering Quixtar.
He was introduced by his youth pastor, and has been going to meetings for the past 4 weeks.

1. My son has been told that Quixtar is not a get rich scheme.
2. Requires twice a week meetings — one with his immediate upline
and one with his upline’s upline.
3. Must wear business attire to the upline’s upline meetings.
4. Makes money by getting others to join “The Business.”

At this point, let me say that I am a MLM surivor including Mary Kay.

I have been exposed to others such as AL Williams, Amway, and others in my lifetime so the Quixtar rhetoric was nothing new. Quixtar has a “Point” system instead of cash. Points can be exchanged for cash. We have concluded that my son will earn about $1,044 US Dollars during his first year. He might reach a “Diamond” club level in 15 years if he dedicates his life to “The Business.”

Right now, the big push is for him to purchase his “ticket” to the big convention in Tennessee. I knew all about the energizing convention without his saying a word. One website offered a Dateline video on the web which we sat and watched together on the web.

My son kept saying that Quixtar has changed since that time.

I showed him other websites where they show how Quixtar makes its money off of other people by selling motivational tapes and books.

I am not angry with the people who sell these tapes and books. While in Mary Kay, I learned a lot, made good contacts, improved my appearance, and learned about business.

I now own my own business that I can’t get my son to take interest because I don’t show a “Diamond” level driving a cute car or a huge home.

My son has a promising future, but is about to give up going to college to chase his dream of being a “Diamond.” Well, he’s already a Diamond in my eyes and I feel that The Business is about to crush a beautiful jewel that it has taking me a lifetime to polish. Just as it is time to step out into the world, he does something silly like join an MLM.

By chance I personally know the Woodwards (through a cousin of hers)

Was never prospected by them and have had a few run ins with some of the people in his blog. Things I have noticed that really tick me off are that until almost the end they never mention Quixtar, IBO say their group can do things no other group can and many times lead you to belieive they are the ONLY members and their Diamonds are the only ones period.
Since the airing of the Bo Short exposee we have done so little with our own business we might as well not be in. I even packed up all our tapes and put them in the garage. Next step will be putting them to the side of the road for the trash man and hope he has enough sense not to take them home and listen to then.

It’s not Quixtar

But the “motivational”/tool scam organization that he belongs to that’s the problem. Showing him “negative” info, like what’s on this site will not work. The best thing to do is ask questions. Steer those questions about profitablility of his business and whether or not the tapes, books or functions really help him do that. What they neglect to tell your son is that money is made through the sale of products through the Quixtar site. They push recruitment so that there will be more people to brainwash into buying tools and attending functions. The next time he tries to push a tape or function on you, just ask to see the latest catalog.
Ask him who he makes the most money off of, customers, members or downline. And always ask him why he got into the business. Putting down the business or the oraganization will only push him farther away. Be patient. Always tell your son that you love him and care for him no matter what.

My 20 year old son and his girlfriend have been members for one year

They have just returned from one of many trips for this company. They have spent thousands, and in return, made next to nothing. He is losing his nice car, and about to be evicted from their apt. He has an ulcer, and they just told me that Halloween is satanic and they will not be celebrating this year. Where did my son go? What do I do to help?

I am new to the forum

Little background–hubby and I are currently Q-IBO’s. But we have become very discouraged and not done anything with the business since the first of the year. We really became disallusioned with the broadcast with Bo Short whom we really think has some integrity. We were told from the start that as you grew to a higher pin there was money in the tools, we just didn’t realize that it was such a racket. We were also very faithful in attending everything put on by upline for 10 years until we decided that it was just the same thing over & over & over and there wasn’t really anything else we could get from these functions. In defense of the books, I will say we have become better people with more vision because of the things we have read and probably will continue to read. Hope all is well with everyone and welcome comments, even questions.

Hello Summer,I was in Network 21 for 6 years

I am from Slovakia, but Network 21 has same training program in every country. I joined when I was 18. It was the time when Amway (in this part of world there is not Quixtar, Amway has internet business called Vebso here) was booming. Every month there were new achievers and people realy made money. Network 21 has many charismatic leaders so they are very dangerous. I saw about 15 big 3 day events (called Weekend seminar) and it was very impresive. Just to give you perspective on making money with network 21, I will tell you about our leader (he is one of the biggest achievers in Slovakia). He was in business for about 3 years and he made it to the Direct Distributor. He has 1000 distributors in his group, with turnover 16.000 USD. And he got about 2000 USD for months. He was getting this income for one year. So you can see these are very bad numbers. The Network 21 teaching is about building the network of consumers, not sellers. And this is reason why business of my leader did not survive it s first year. He is still in business, telling people this is the best business opportunity in the world. For 7 years he is getting only little amount of money. After first year as Direct Distributor, he needed to get job, and then he started classic business. And this happened to all leaders here. It is not true that MLM works every time, everywhere. This guy works for 10 years and he achieved nothing. Please stay away from N21 and from Quixtar. Just to give you pespective, amount of money I put in books, tapes and meetings is my one year salary at my job. Network 21 tells people they can achieve nothing without these “tools”. Now I have I right perspective of this “university of success” (their words). There is no valuable information there, only stories, telling people to buy another tape, another seminar and of course teliing how great the leaders are. Just two words – pure brainwashing. One more thing – our Executive Diamond from Hungary (he achieved Ex. Diamond before 6 years) still dont have his own house. Quixtar tells people that Executive Diamond make about 1.000.000 USD / year. What is he waiting for ? He told us before 8 years that, he will buy Dodge Viper. Yes, you gues right, he dont have it. Look at anti Amway/Quixtar pages – my 6 experience tells me, it is all true. Stay away from them, and try to find serious business.

I sit corrected

The IBO Annual Business Fee is $40.00. This fee includes business support fees, the Independent Business Owners Association International (IBOAI) support fee, and the Independent Business Owners Benefits Association (IBOBA) Insurance Fee.

The IBO may also elect at registration to purchase the Product Intro Pack for $55.00, and the Publication Pack for $20.00, for a total of $115.00 (excluding taxes and delivery).

These are US dollars. It should also be noted that this is what it costs to sign up on line. The price varies if you do it through a sponsor.

According to my latest SA-13

the cost of receiving the optional literature portion is $20 US; and the optional Product Introduction Pack is $55.

The mandatory cost of signing up as an IBO is $49.00

The whole signup package offered by the Corp costs $124, also – and then the various AMOs add their rather pricey motivational crap to THAT…..

My friend is signing up and i wanted to know the price

I called the corp and u can become a ibo at a fraction of the price with no product or achieve magazine. My friend of course made fun of my suggestion. The corp said buying the products is encouraged but not required to become a IBO. Even subcribing is encouraged but not required for achieve magazine. Im sure diff lines of sponsorship force their downline to buy the entire kit

You were obviously being pitched a business

The guy believes that his business could become your business and that you’ll both make a lot of money doing business. This business has certain rules and laws and guidelines and such and as with all business, you must be sure you know what you’re getting into before going into business.

Now, the reason I stressed that this is a business is to prepare you for what I’m about to say. It will sound strange and you’ll probably think it’s nuts, but it’s not. It’s a business. Always remember that.
This isn’t a friendship you’re starting, but a business relationship.

So, if I were in your shoes what I’d do is take a cassette recorder with you on your next meeting with this guy. Let him see it. Let him know that because this is a business you want to record your entire conversation. It’s perfectly legal. If he declines to continue because of the recorder, you’ll know you probably wouldn’t want to do this business with him in the first place. If he does agree to continue with the tape rolling, then ask him a lot of questions about the business.

Ask him about Bo Short. As him about Eric Scheibler. Ask him about the FTC’s 70% rule. Ask him how much money you will earn if you achieve Platinum, Emerald or Diamond. Ask lots of questions. Then ask some more. If something doesn’t sound right, ask why.

If, after your recorded conversation, you feel the business is for you, then go for it. Just remember to keep that tape safe.

This business is amway

Don’t let him lie and tell you they are sister companies, amway distributors were all forced to become quixtar distributors at the beginning of 2003. amway still exists in name but only in foreign countries. The only difference bewteen amway and quixtar is that quixtar is now on the web.

He wants that list to use it to build your downline (and of course his downline). Here is a tip, if you make that list and decide not to do the business, he will use the list and call every person on it to try and talk them into doing the business (in his downline).

I spent the afternoon listening to a pitch from a Quixtar guy

While he sounded sincere etc etc, he would not answer my question (What exactly is the business you refer to – what does it entail, what do you see as my role in this?). I did hear from him that he wanted a list of all my friends etc … but he did not state clearly what the business entailed.

Before I go any further, I’m trying to research this on the internet and that’s how I found this group.

I’d like to hear from others on what exactly this Quixtar thing is all about … it sounded almost like a ‘cult’ to me by the end of the discussion this afternoon. My response was that I would think things over before giving any answers (either for or against).

Thanks for any feedback, advice, suggestions etc … I’m curious!

Remind your friend that they are supposed to “sponsor up”

and that sponsoring high school seniors who have no clue about business is going to doom them to failure, because they don’t need the products and they can’t afford them anyway. What I found is (thankfully) many of the youngest IBOs quit early, since they simply can’t afford the functions, the tapes, etc. And more teachers are politically liberal and won’t appreciate the extreme conservatism from the stage, and hopefully won’t get hooked so easily. Maybe talking to the friend from this perspective will help get him to leave the young people alone.

Also, if he is going on campus to do this, the principal, the superintendent, the school board, and even the local police may be interested in hearing about this. I’m quite sure that he cannot legally solicit on campus.

I posted a couple of weeks ago about a friend who is now an IBO with Quixtar

Apparently, there isn’t much we can do to get him out of the business, but now it seems he is targeting our local elementary school teachers and high school seniors at the local high school.
What should I do? I hate to see such young people be victims of such a bad company.

My husband and I are anxious for the Dateline special on Quixtar to be aired. We will definitely make sure our friend sees this program.

There are a lot of people who join and

thankfully see through the hype quicker than the rest of us. So there is a chance, and not a small one, that they can be talked out of the business, and the earlier the better. You are giving up on them too easily. I’m not that cynical. All of my downline quit well before I did.

Not Nonsense

If you come to someone with information against what they believe is a good thing your going to have resistence and they probably wont change there mind, however if you expose the upslimes for what they really are into the buisness for then you have a much better chance of people leaving or quiting the business. Your talking about people not renewing, that wasn’t the question


There are plenty of people who quit in the first year. In fact, 2/3 do not renew each year! So there is hope. Before they get too brainwashed, give them alternate information. Real facts. Tell them a good business owner is skeptical and puts together a business plan, with profit and expense projections. Go to the photos section of this club. We have a copy of a page that was a tear out to show prospects. It showed average GROSS income for Q-12 and above. A Diamond earns about $135K gross. I’ve done that NET most years since 1993, as a pediatrician, though it’s a lot less after taxes. More important is the fine print that has been magnified for better viewing. It demonstrates that less than 0.2% make Q-12. Given that the average Platinum lost $918 per year after all those system expenses, in a study done by the Wisconsin State Attorney General in 1982 (and nothing has changed for the better!) they are almost certain to lose money.

Ruth’s book is a huge resource–she has a chapter devoted to her Diamond’s income and expense record, which demonstrates that a Diamond’s lifestyle comes from the tools business and not the Amway/Quixtar business. The big Diamonds lie when they show their planes and their private islands. Another resource that I like the best are the multiple lawsuits of the Diamonds suing Diamonds over the tools business. These suits have court documents where it is stated that the income is really from the tape, book, and seminar business, and that the Quixtar business is a front for the Diamond’s real business, which is selling as many tapes and seminar tickets as possible. The transcripts for these suits are easy to find at:

On that website is a list of Diamonds and Emeralds who quit the business, and who had to go back to work!!!

Very good friends of ours have just become IBO’s with Quixtar

My husband and I know all about Quixtar and it’s relations with Amway, as we have done extensive research on Quixtar. They cannot afford to lose the money and time that they will be investing in this company, and they are COMPLETELY convinced and they will be rich VERY SOON. Help. How do we convince them Quixtar is not the way to wealth?

It would seem to me that once you start breaking directs underneath you

You actually start to LOSE income, since the percentage paid to you is less than when the business volume of those people was flowing through you. I remember posing that question to one of my upline once. I don’t remember the exact answer he gave me, but I know it didn’t make sense. Now that I understand the flow of tool money, it all makes sense. What does it matter if an Emerald or Diamond’s Quixtar bonus money drops, as long as they’re making a mint off the ol’ tool trade, right?

BTW, I wonder if Don Storms will continue to rake in the tool bucks now that Quixtar has all but given him the heave-ho..

Here’s my opinion, as a “resident IBO” on this board:

Quixtar has the potential to earn you some extra cash. For most people it amounts to “fun money” – a movie here, a CD there….. ironically, if you look around a bit, you’ll even find people who might want to be a retail customer of yours if you give them a break on the retail price.

The chances of you “finding your dream”, “retiring”, blah blah blah are VERY slim – go to Vegas or buy lottery tickets; they’re faster.

If you are part of a “motivational organization” or “system” – then you are indeed looking at a money pit unless you have the gumption to say NO when your expenses exceed what you wish to be your profits. There will be HUGE pressure put upon you to “spend now to build your future”. You will probably be shunned by your upline.

I ran the family distributorship for years – it’s literally “the top of the heap” – the oldest and largest distributorship in the world, outside of JA-RI (Rich and Jay’s). I was given the opportunity to buy it recently – and on terms that anyone on this board could have afforded; and I didn’t want it. No way – no how!

I’m pretty sure Quixtar is the largest MLM, but any of them that have these “training fees” “motivational tools” “functions” etc are going to chew through your wallet in the same manner. You can find all the motivation you can stand at your local library for free.

Best wishes!

00pv/250bv/$300 IBO cost (includes shipping/tax)

The 3% IBO gets a $7.50 check. How much did they invest into system tools and function tickets? Did they sign up downlines? How much did they group invest into system tools and function tickets that month? This 3% group shares just $7.50 in gross income that month.

The 250bv generates just $87.50 (250bvx35%) in gross income for the entire organization. This includes performance bonus, ruby bonuses, Leadership bonus, profit sharing, Emerald, Diamond, and EDC bonuses, and Q12. What % of IBOs are at the 15% bonus? The 6-4-2 IBO plan shows 98% of IBOs below 15% bonus, meaning 60% of available gross income goes to the 2% of IBOs at 15%+ bonus levels. The average system IBO at the major functions makes less than the income average claimed in the IBO plan ($115 for ‘active’ IBOs–66% ‘active’).

Many system IBOs have posted their average system expenses and these expenses are not much more or less than the $262.50 gross income generated by each 300pv in sales to the IBOs and their members/clients.

What is missing from these equations? Retail sales to end-consumers.

The IBOs on the systems generate most (80-95%+) of Quixtar sales thru self consumption of the PV, but are conditioned to focus their efforts on recruiting (registering) more IBOs and promoting the system to these new recruits, in addition to the concept of ‘buy from your own store’. IBOs below the 25% bonus are considered B2B (business to business) customers of their uplines’ IBOs; more importantly, these IBOs below 25% bonus are the end-users of the uplines’ system of tools and function tickets.

The IBOs are conditioned to buy tools and function tickets and find more IBOs to buy more tools and function tickets.

IBOs are taught to retail. Unfortunately, the IBOs are retailing the system tools and function tickets and participating in NONE of the profits fromm these sales. It’s called ‘legal fiction’.


I encourage every IBO to replace ‘tool’, ‘system’, and ‘function’ references on the tools and in the speeches to ‘soap’.

Focus on promoting and selling the ‘soap’, not the ‘hope’.

Enjoy paying your 1000% margin on tools and function tickets, suckers.

See, this is where the problem lies :)

My Grampa was only an Emerald – the REALLY big checks go to our downline. And we never got any of that “system” money because we weren’t in one. We were sort of the “bastard child” of Amway…. and I personally am just a distributor under my Grampa (but ran the warehouse) – my whopping big bonus checks barely cover the cost of renewal every year 🙂

Fortunately, my husband has a real, honest-to-goodness 8 to 5 job; and keeps a lovely roof over our heads 🙂 He would also remind me, when I was pounding my head on the desk over some crazy thing that Amway would do – that Amway is not much different than any other big corporation, since he experiences the same feelings with the huge corporation he’s with…..

Here’s “my” acronym: GINAD – glad I’m not a diamond 🙂

Do you mean Quixtar itself is going down, out of service – delete?

No more products, no more Amway? No more?

Reason I ask is I interviewed an Amway/Quixtar IBO about two weeks ago. He was rather proud of his accomplishments in the business. On Thursday, I made him a job offer in Sales. He grabbed it pretty quick.
It just seemed odd.


Cell phone service has to be $40 a month, or maybe $60 a month for premium service, and that price may go lower, as much as companies have tried to product-differentiate, and as much as they have tried to use tricky pricing plans. It is basically just a commodity service.

And yeah, 1% sounds way too low for a commission sales person.

Isn’t that the deal with Amway?

Yeah, the products are kind of alright, but they’re so expensive! Super premium prices for what are merely premium products.

So, something like phone service which might work as part of network marketing because you’re not transporting product, the price is just too high, especially for something that is basically just a comodity service.

When my wife and I were prospected into Amway

a friend of ours tried to get us to see the mistake we were making. He gave us a binder full of articles and price comparisons, including an excerpt from Paul Butterfield’s book, “Amway: The Cult Of Free Enterprise.”

None of that worked. We were being manipulated by an expertly devised system that would use our friend to get us involved.

Telling someone that he/she is wrong about MLM is a tactic that is easily dismissed and will probably backfire.

I wish I could enlarge that sentence onto a billboard:

**Telling someone that he/she is wrong about MLM is a tactic that is easily dismissed and will probably backfire.**

The only method I’ve found to intervene that has any realistic hope of working is to ask questions. Learn as much as you can about MLM and about the particular company, and then ask “I don’t understand…”-type questions. If you can engage their critical thinking skills, you might have a chance. If you simply appeal to their emotions, you lose.

You can’t tell them they’re wrong; they have to find that out for themselves. They want to believe they made the right choice by getting involved, and they want to trust the people who recruited them. So you are fighting a battle of trust. And you don’t have the experience against their recruiting systems to win.

So the only path available to you is to get THEM thinking. “How long do they say it will take to get to the first achievement level? What happens if you don’t get there by the proscribed date? Do they just tell you to keep on going, even if you are losing money? All businesses (that are really businesses) have a ‘drop dead’ date. Were you encouraged to set one?”

“What about training? On my job, I’ve been given all the training I need at the company’s expense? I don’t understand why they have to have so much training, at YOUR expense.”

“Did the leaders claim that they don’t make any money unless YOU make money? What about all those training materials? Do they disclose how much profit they make from that? Or do they deny making anything?”

I hope you can see by now that these are the kinds of questions to which they may offer snap answers, but they’ll end up thinking about them more deeply in their own time.

Then all you can do is hope, and maybe pray.

Keep reading. Keep learning. Don’t give up on them. And most important of all, be there for them when they discover the truth about MLM and abandon it. Don’t criticize them for ignoring you. Don’t tell them “I told you so.” Just be grateful when they come out of it.
They’re going to need love and support in order to come to terms with what is happening to them. You can offer that, if you don’t burn the bridge.

Has anyone heard of Diamond Tree?

What about Kendall Cho and Nikken … I guess he’s leading this company.
My parents have just signed up and are convinced it’s a great thing. I personally think the products are weak but very expensive. I’m just getting home from a seminar hosted by Linda Proctor. This is the first time I’m being exposed to MLM scheme. Any advice on helping my parents understand that this isn’t a good thing and they should cut their losses which they still have some $ and friends?

I quit cyberwize after 2 months when I figured that out

I had some health products left over & tried to sell them on eBay. Not one bid & they never sold. I’ve seen others trying to sell those things too & put them on my watch list to see if they’d sell..and they never did,at leat on my watch . No one wants that MLM crap. They’ll bid for all kinds of nonsense but not that stuff.I was given some “business books” & tapes to “hand out” & I put them all in the trash.